Building the next generation of wireless: discussion at Unleashing DePIN
In the new episode of Unleashing DePIN podcast, Co-founder of Relay, Elijah Lomaka, sits down with Tyler Boscolo to discuss the story behind Relay, current state of wireless industry, and the future that the team at Relay is building. Watch Unleashing DePIN: Episode 8 on Youtube!
Episode on Youtube
Episode transcript
Tyler@
All right, hello and welcome back. We are already on the eighth episode of what is now the Unleashing Deepin podcast, and I am super excited for our next guest. We are taking it back to our humble DIY roots.
Tyler@
We are here with Elijah from Relay Wireless. We are super excited to have him. He's gonna come with a ton of wealth of information talking about his past in DeWi, what he's building at Relay. And thank you for being on the pod.
Tyler@
I'm super excited to have you.
Speaker 2
Thanks for having me. I'm excited to chat.
Tyler@
Likewise, likewise. Let's start with this. I'd love to know a little bit about, I always like to ask people kind of what their background is. You've been in the space for a long time. So can you share a bit of your background and history, how you got into DY, deep in sort of the space in general, and go from there?
Speaker 2
Long time is a big word. It's all baby space right now, but thanks for the intro and excited to be here as I celebrate. So my background, I'm originally from Ukraine, born and raised in Ukraine, moved to United States right before COVID hit.
Speaker 2
So that was epic. We came like, it was February before all of the borders shut down, like literally one of the last planes. Oh my goodness. And they shut down everything. That was funny experience.
Speaker 2
And yeah, before US, I was working in tech, startup journey, like pretty standard for sort of new business tech. We just started, you know, I originally started my career from marketing. That's what I was studying in university, but then I sort of, you know, I evaluated marketing, design, engineering.
Speaker 2
I had this childhood trauma from my granny. My granny used to be a math teacher. And so she would torture me with all of the, all of the different equations and stuff to learn in school. And the Ukrainian program is actually like coming from post -Soviet Union kind of land, you know, at Paso -Denian country.
Speaker 2
I would say you guys in the United States go easy here. Like, cause like what we study in Ukraine is insane. Like, you know, you literally, you literally like starts studying like calculus and stuff like in high school. So I had this, I had this like little trauma.
Speaker 2
So I never chose engineering originally. And then I thought marketing would be fun cause it's like, you know, design plus like communications and stuff. But that turns out to be boring for me. So I kind of jumped into design cause design was this field where you get to both work in a business side, if you're doing product and work on the creativity side, you know, designing stuff and figuring out how things will work.
Speaker 2
And so, you know, that's how I started my career in design. Worked with many YC companies. Back when I was moving to United States, I was working at Logitech. And yeah, I guess like from a background perspective, that's where, that's where during my time at Logitech, we had some projects going on that involved both hardware and software pieces.
Speaker 2
You know, Logitech has a pretty big lineup of different hardware products. And yeah, and that's how, and that's how the team sort of got into DUI. We found Helium. Helium was just at the inception phase at that point, at that point that just got interested in it.
Speaker 2
Cause it was the first real world, like before, before this whole decentralized infrastructure industry inception, there was like DeFi was the, you know, driving force in crypto. DeFi still is like probably the biggest one, right?
Speaker 2
Cause of Bitcoin and Ethereum and all of these original chains that kicked it off. But for me, it was always like so much speculation and that, you know, and it was too early. And yes, like if you are a geeky developer, you know, all of these different things about like ledgers and blockchains and stuff, that's probably super interesting for you.
Speaker 2
But like coming from the outside perspective, trying to figure out how it's going to work. I always felt like, ah, you know, the time will come, I'll get into that. And then Helium showed this interesting, whole new sort of view on, you know, you know, the way they cocky, call them, they call the industry HIPAA, right?
Speaker 2
Helium incentivized.
Tyler@
You get to set those trends, right? Yeah, you can.
Speaker 2
that's, you know, they deserve it for sure. But like, you know, token incentivize infrastructure was super interesting idea. Cause like you get to build real stuff, real world infrastructure and then, you know, you dive into this whole notion of like, how much underserved areas and like land in the United States and how many people need more connectivity.
Speaker 2
And you start to understand that, you know, telecom people use, you know, love using this term called last mile connectivity. Like who's going to be the last to like, who's going to be the one company or like the one, you know, set of companies who will cover this last piece of like underserved people and so on and so forth.
Speaker 2
And D white has a great chance in that. So I'm kind of deviating from the topic here. I'm a big talker sometimes. Sorry.
Tyler@
That's okay, no we love it.
Speaker 2
But, uh, yeah, like started the team was trying to basically solve a problem of ubiquitous connectivity for certain devices. And this is a.
Tyler@
Right, that's that's where you're experiencing this initial kind of.
Speaker 2
Yeah, as a human, you know, we all experienced this when you walk one street of San Francisco or New York, like any large city. And for some reason, the United States is, is sometimes is very bad at this. Like it's, it's strange because this land actually brought up these technologies to the world, like, no invented, invented them at large, largely.
Speaker 2
But there's so many different countries, like back in Ukraine, you would have great connectivity in any large city, you, you won't have too much to too many gaps, you know, and stuff like that. But in the US, like, you go New York, you walk, you walk San Francisco, there's definitely spots where you just go blank, like no, no connection.
Speaker 2
And as a human, it's easy for you to know, you have logic, you know, you know, how to turn yourself around, you know, put your hand up in the sky and find that bar, but it's a machine. It's much harder to make a machine to find that to find that connectivity piece.
Speaker 2
And so the team was trying to solve this ubiquitous connectivity issue. And, and DIY was like one of those ideas of like, Oh, actually, if we stick up, if we stick up a whole bunch of hotspots and all these windows, right?
Speaker 2
Initially, it was windows and apartments, people thought that would work, right? Right. That would actually solve the question because like any direction you go, you get, you get signal, right? And so that's how I sort of landed on this whole DIY notion, and I realized started at large.
Tyler@
That's super interesting. So the backstory was really at Logitech when you were building a product that needed this sort of ubiquitous connectivity. Is that how you initially found like Lourouin or what was the overlap with, was it just sort of this notion that you could start setting up hotspots and getting ubiquitous connectivity or was it specifically anything Lourouin related?
Tyler@
And I don't know if you can touch on that at all, but was there some sort of intersection over and above just the model of being able to have connectivity everywhere?
Speaker 2
Yeah, it was more so that like having connectivity everywhere and IoT was one of the probably biggest parts of that there was other networks that we needed to use. But back in the day, you know, DIY just started. And so you were just working with what you got.
Speaker 2
The first one was the first one. So IoT worked for some parts and then for other parts, it was slightly different. But yeah, like just a question at large was Sol -hubicuous connectivity. And DIY really struck me, like can't speak to the other parts of the team because they were like more focused on.
Speaker 2
I was still in design. My part in that whole thing was to design interface and design how that whole product will work. So I wasn't really like, I was part of the engineering conversations that we all on tech teams.
Speaker 2
But you know, people who were actually solving it from the engineering part, they probably like found more solutions. But DIY was definitely one of the interesting ones that stood out because it was new and it was in a sort of just whole different approach to this game.
Tyler@
Yeah, yeah, that's awesome. You're probably one of the very few people that were a early adopter in Helium and found out about it because of working at a household name tech company like Logitech. Like I imagine the group of people that fit into that criteria is relatively small.
Tyler@
So that's ridiculously interesting.
Speaker 2
I'm not sure actually. I think that where helium was starting, I think that was starting from San Francisco. That's true. Yeah, so they're probably good, like a bunch of people. And I was living in Midwest by that time, so it's not like I was hanging out in San Francisco all the time.
Speaker 2
Sure. But I'm sure that there's like, you know, that's a tech city. You can probably hear that. Hear what I'm talking about.
Tyler@
Yeah, no, it makes total sense. It's funny. Uh, I've touched on this a couple of times, but my very first, um, well, the very first time I heard about a DIY like project was back in 2017 and it was basically this concept of it wasn't Laura Wain.
Tyler@
I want to say it was wifi, but this idea of, or this notion of paying people in crypto. And at the time this was back during the ICO craze and everything was you're going to tokenize the world. And that was sort of going to be the, the operating model by which we all went home and adopted.
Tyler@
And so it was more, there were more bad ideas than good. And so it kind of tainted my first idea of what do I, and then it took a few cycles and I'm a little bit slow. So sometimes you have to wait for all these things to come to fruition to say, Hey, that's actually a reasonably good idea.
Tyler@
Um, but, but that's super exciting nonetheless, that you were kind of an early participant in it. So after logitech, what was the transition you started deploying hardware at scale? Was that kind of where you went next after, after your initial helium slash logitech exposure?
Speaker 2
Yeah, it's, I think, I think many people went that route really because rewards were super high. You were, you were, you know, it was the golden era of like helium. And you remember that crazy part like you couldn't get hot spots like it was insane. Oh yeah, everything was everything. Everything was just backlog, you can get your order.
Speaker 2
And so that was, that was very interesting experience. But yeah, we got, we got our hands on about 300 ish 250 300 ish devices, give or take couple, because you know, there was a lot of issues in the beginning. And we were just, we were just really trying to figure out what's what this thing is going to be about, you know, get the taste of it.
Speaker 2
And really interesting part and in whole helium thing that I love to emphasize is that, you know, the centralizing infrastructure means allowing other people to deploy easily like if you if you look into, and this is and this is very basic statement by the way.
Speaker 2
Most of the networks are hard to deploy and you have to pour a lot of money into that. And what like D y does is allows you to invest smaller ports, the proportions of money but you know still built still built infrastructure. And that was it really the the thing we saw with my friends were like, okay, this is interesting because now my mom can be a deploy or you know, potentially, which you would never think she would like with traditional wireless because it's so technically heavy.
Speaker 2
And obviously there was a lot of issues and stuff to finish. So we, we like from the beginning we saw this potential for large scale deployment and that's what drives our company right now. We thought that, you know, looking at the traditional wireless market, there's most most of the most everything is built by companies like it's you rarely see individuals having networks and and you know, building it just like those people are like Crystal King, you know, they're they're fanatics are super interested in they're like, they know everything about technology super, you know, deeply rooted in that.
Speaker 2
Right. So most of the most of the organizations that build wireless and other telecom that were actually companies and we're like, you know, even though it's driven by consumers and that's what we want to do because the whole crypto is consumer based like you want to remove middle man.
Speaker 2
And so that's why we want to deploy larger amounts amount of devices to actually see the challenges and understand where this whole thing will go and how difficult it is to deploy how difficult it is to maintain.
Speaker 2
What are the other parts of the equation. Right. So yeah, that's that's how it all started just deploying most of the deploying around 250 devices ourselves.
Tyler@
Wow. So fast forward. As fast as we could, by the way.
Speaker 2
as fast as we could because it was crazy. Very hard to report.
Tyler@
Yeah, sure, sure. No, that was definitely an interesting time in the chronology of DY and Helium where it was at. But so fast forward to Relay. Where was the turning point, the aha moment, what happened where you said, okay, there is a need that is in need of being solved.
Tyler@
There's going to be a lot of large scale deployers that are facing a lot of the problems. How did you transition from being a person or an organization deploying hardware to sort of solving the pain points that those types of businesses were experiencing?
Speaker 2
That's a great question. A -ha moment. Sometimes you don't appreciate those too much. I think it was pivotal at the moment when the whole crypto market went into winter. It was this sort of cycle.
Speaker 2
Human was $60. Everyone was freaking out. It was crazy. And we were planning to deploy more hardware. But then when we were deploying hardware, so we always knew that we were going to build a platform like the Web App.
Speaker 2
Once we understood that we all need to automate this business somehow, because it was just deploying hardware, see how it goes. We knew that we need some sort of dashboard for our hosts to see what's happening and get a hold of their payments, see the history of those payments, understand which infrastructure they have, and maybe for us to post a task or orders when there needs to be maintenance.
Speaker 2
We particularly went for an interesting model. In our early days, we didn't have any employees in the company. We worked through what's called partner host model, where we found local people in the area that we deploy that are interested in helium.
Speaker 2
And we basically just saw who's more into helium and who's ready to do a bit more work. And so we will name the partner. And people who just wanted to give the location and just have the device deployed, then don't worry about anything.
Speaker 2
And we would call them host. And so partners would be the one responsible for maintenance, any requests we have. And hosts will be just the ones who just provide location. Sometimes partner could be both, right?
Speaker 2
They could be also host. And so that kind of gave us an edge where we didn't need to really spend any capital into actual work orders and deployment at large. We just would send devices to those partners.
Speaker 2
Partners would then go ahead and deploy them at locations. And we would just revenue share them. And I'm not sure, like, I talked to a lot of the employers. Not many of them went this route. They actually went and said, you know, deployment is the one of the things I'd much rather just pay for it and revenue share less with people.
Speaker 2
But there were some who definitely went for so this partner host model. But the key thing was that we started talking to other companies, other organizations. And you know how it comes like, there's always people who, like there's Bitcoin people and Ethereum people.
Speaker 2
And I will, I will build a mining business. I will build whatever to help the network grow. And inevitably Helium started having their own and we were one of them. And we just started hearing the same challenges we were experiencing.
Speaker 2
Now, again, we had this idea since the beginning that, okay, most of that will be sold through our custom software. But what became evident is that everyone started to build something, you know, and or using some third -party apps in combination.
Speaker 2
And it was just, it sucked. Like initial days of really, we had like spreadsheet with 50 tabs or whatever was the maximum. And you had the two top three API to Helium and two other places. And it was breaking, it was very unreliable.
Speaker 2
It was breaking all the time. Every payout cycle was pain. It was super difficult to track. And it was just like, you know, it was more than full -time job to just keep track of stuff. And imagine doing that for 250 devices, right?
Speaker 2
Now scale it up to a thousand, scale it up to like tens of thousands, right? And so that that became very evident that there was a large set of issues. And so the aha moment was we build the dashboard for ourselves for our own hosts.
Speaker 2
And then we just realized, okay, like why don't we just give it out to other employers since it's already built? It's not, it's something that we were passionate about. Like all my co -founders come out of software background, enterprise software background.
Speaker 2
So now how to build enterprise tooling. And we just went on, I had a couple of initial deployers and started just drilling through feedback and working on the platform.
Tyler@
Yeah, I love that. We'll get into your obsessive product focus and customer focus, which are tenants that I'm very appreciative of, especially given the challenges that relate to sort of web through user experiences, obviously this growing, but still nascent industry of deep end and DIY.
Tyler@
So before we go into all of those things, maybe this is a good time to talk about what is your actual product and service offering that you offer. Can you talk through the value proposition and a few of the things that you provide these large scale employers?
Speaker 2
Yeah, that's about time. Definitely want to talk about that. So really is what we call all -in -one platform for managing, operating, paying, and scaling DIY networks. So if you think every DIY network consists of different modules, you have to deploy the network, you have to then operate and maintain that network, and then on every single period of time, at your own cadence, you have to pay for locations where you installed your hardware, pay for your employees, pay for your contractors, whatever in your company, whatever is happening in your company, you have to cover that.
Speaker 2
And then for certain networks, it's also scaling part, right? You want to build more coverage. And as I said previously, the problem was like you had to either build it yourself, like the cost of software, internal software sucks. It's hard, and you have to have an engineering team.
Speaker 2
It's not cost effective. You have to actually know how to build software, and that's not easy. You can't be product by ground. It's not easy. So it's our job. That's why we exist.
Tyler@
Right.
Speaker 2
And so, or you go and find third -party apps and you somehow stitch it together, which is a Hockey way, works fine. And like, up to a certain point, and then it starts breaking, it still gives you a lot of headache.
Speaker 2
Or you will need to use platform like ours. However, at the point, there was no platform like ours. So that's why we decided to build it. And so really, our mission is to give you one single space as a large -scale deployer to control your entire network in every aspect you need to control it.
Speaker 2
Starting from, and you can think about the platform as containing these modules as a DIY deployer that you need to operate your network. Starting from the deployment, moment of like, I need to go find locations, survey those locations, talk to managers, sign contracts, see which locations work for me and work for those who provide them, and actually sign contracts, deploy those locations, then get my, actually get my team to deploy those locations.
Speaker 2
If you have specific team or partners or however your company is structured, then every month I need to, or every week or whatever is their agreement. I have to process payouts, which is probably like the biggest pain point because that is automated.
Speaker 2
Like if I say only deploy a certain period of time every year, it's just that season of deployment. I can somehow work through that. Well, payouts are actually repetitive process every month, every week, every day sometimes. You see those deployers processing money and it's just painful how they used to do it before us.
Speaker 2
And how do I maintain my actual infrastructure with specifically in the early days of DIY, everything was so unstable, so many issues, so many different statuses. And a lot of people came in who just didn't even have technical background to understand that.
Speaker 2
So also how do I do that in a simple and sort of explained easy way that my mother can deploy or anyone can deploy. Share that with my team members, since I'm in the organization and I have other people working on my team, as well as like for the advanced ones, I want to scale.
Speaker 2
And so how do I just repeat that on the automated level and just have that all working for me nice and tight? And so the platform is really, we call it all in one because the idea is to provide that cohesive experience from A to Z.
Tyler@
Yeah, that's a really crystal clear explanation. You touched on a couple of the things that are specifically consistent pain points. So there's the, if you wanna think about it as the life cycle of deploying hardware, there's the deployment side, the sort of the management operations legal, and then there's the payment side.
Tyler@
You spoke about a few of them. What are the really big pain points that most employers who are listening to this are gonna say, ah, that's a problem that I'm dealing with. And specifically, how do you think about or how are you solving that within the platform?
Tyler@
It's a little bit niche, a little bit specific, but I'm sure there's commonalities between the employers that they're experiencing that they say, oh my gosh, this is a huge problem that I'm experiencing right now and there's a solution to it.
Tyler@
Can you talk about what a few of those things are?
Speaker 2
Oh, absolutely. I can rent about that for like hours. So you don't need to stop me at some point. But number one, biggest pain point that I will call out would be definitely payouts. Payouts is the hardest challenge for the employers that we discovered through our discovery sessions and through my obsessive feedback loops, as you as you call them.
Speaker 2
Oh, yeah. And the reason being is because, first of all, it happens every month. So it's something that's circulating all the time within the company. And second is, well, there's really a lot of things that touch and that which you can think taxes, you can think payroll, you can think.
Speaker 2
Actually, socially, like when you when you discuss a contract with someone, the counterparty, they expect you to, you know, hey, like that's what you that's that's exactly what they're giving you location. Like it's a rent, you know, you pay rent every month or like you pay mortgage every month, right?
Speaker 2
Bank expects you or lender expects you to send them money. And, you know, all of these all of those industries, bank industry, they have automated automated solutions for you to process those payments. Same as like rentals and etc.
Speaker 2
They also have automated solutions. And do you want traditional wireless? They really don't. They didn't before us. So the pain point was like, you imagine running a let's just say nominally running a fleet of thousand hotspots, right?
Speaker 2
Rarely, those thousand hotspots is deployed through a single third party saying like there's one location provider. There are some cases where organizations negotiate with large landowners and, you know, that's easier for them to do to some extent, although it's still hard.
Speaker 2
But most of the time it's the model where you have like thousand hotspots and you have thousand people deploying each single hotspot. And that's where the hell kicks out really. Because you now have to manage information for a thousand people, payments for a thousand people, keep track of those transactions and pass like historical data, keep like, you know, you almost want to run your own blockchain in terms of like internal larger understanding who I paid to Google when and having confirmation of that.
Speaker 2
And without that, you're really going in a dark in a lot of the course where it was really painful from things like I never received my payment or payments actually failing or how do I pay if I want to deploy a different country? You know, the list goes on and on to the things that you actually paid them, but they don't believe you paid them or they tried to scam you or, you know, maybe.
Speaker 2
There's no there's no way for you to prove or there's there's a hard way for you to prove that you paid to them. And what's the leverage within D .Y., right? It's it's again, it's it's an early industry. Everything's build up sort of trust and sharing.
Speaker 2
Right. So yes, you know, sometimes you have contracts and those are more advanced companies, but they will threaten your infrastructure. It just turned off your infrastructure. Now you're just revenue coverage as a company.
Speaker 2
That's that's that's that's bad. Right. So ideally, you want to be in a in a platform. That covers all of those key parts on key parts that we cover within relaying the way we sort of structured it based on that obsessive feedback is you have really three main areas within the platform.
Speaker 2
Number one would be users. We call them users. You could call them members, hosts, whatever, however you want to do that. And that's where you just keep information to all the people that are that are just related to your fleet.
Speaker 2
You know, it could be it could be actual active host. It could be just people that are just sort of on the waitlist and however you want to structure that platform is configurable for you in that way. Then you have locations.
Speaker 2
Most of the time, the people are connected directly to locations. And set as owners of those locations since they provide their like hosts of those locations and then locations are directly connected to hotspots or devices. And that's this change that provides you direct link between OK, this hotspot is related to this location to this person.
Speaker 2
And so this person is related to this hotspot and this hotspot related to location, location related to house. But you know, you can go either way and you will have you will see the link. It will be impossible for you to just misinformation or or be lost, essentially, in some case.
Speaker 2
Got it. And this fundamental model allows you to really easily map out any transaction. So you can you can either map transaction directly to a location. Sometimes the players choose that they want to pay like essentially like a rent with a fixed price.
Speaker 2
So they can they can select they can set a commission on the location level and say, you know, I'm just paying rent for this location, say in dollars or in some coin. Or obviously, most. Popular model would be to just revenue. got it in the past year of time.
Speaker 2
And so the way we solved it is basically establishing this fundamental system that's interconnected, all of the key parts interconnected between each other, then allowing you to set commissions to basically route transactions into correct places.
Speaker 2
And then since that's your internal ledger, you basically keep the whole history of your transactions payments with proofs, receipts, and you can always prove that you actually did process the payment. And as well on the other side, if something failed, you can also see and fix it.
Tyler@
Sure. Sure. And one of the questions I had was when the payment side is going out or when you're handling the payments, is that all crypto? Is there a crypto fiat component? What does that look like from a really large scale deployer?
Tyler@
Because I imagine they can only pay so many of their contracts and employees in crypto to some extent, and then they're going to hit a wall with either needing to get fiat or convert to fiat. How does that fit into your guys's model? And is that part of the problem that you're tackling or solving?
Speaker 2
You know enterprises, well man, it's very, it's high, like every single one of them are unique. Like, and that's one of the big differences between like individual deployers that have just a couple of hotspots, able to negotiate whatever terms they want, since it's maybe like friends or family or whatever someone you know personally versus doing business where you have to negotiate deals at scale.
Speaker 2
And you're absolutely right. There's people who will never touch crypto and we have a lot of the players on the platform that actually process fiat payments and so you know, now the question is if you revenue share, how will you know how much dollars or euros or whatever current local currency is to pay, like for your IOT or mobile or H &T like in previous companies, there I guess that that was another hard problem that feeds into this payouts.
Tyler@
I imagine it's a lot easier to handle when it's all in crypto, but it's probably a lot more accessible to be able to sort of create these arrangements or these partnerships when it's on the fiat side.
Speaker 2
No, it should because there's a natural adoption curve. Like you can't expect everyone to just love crypto, accept crypto. People that accept crypto, they usually believe in a project, but people that just knew or say, people older that just want a couple of bucks, they would much rather just do it as a simple rental thing.
Speaker 2
Or simple, just give me X amount of dollars per month. One critical thing is for platform to be highly configurable. As a deployer, you have to come in and you have to set your own, you have to have right solutions out of the box.
Speaker 2
That's what platform allows you. So if you don't want to configure anything, you can pay revenue sharing, just set up a couple of users, a couple of locations, a couple of commissions and you're good to go.
Speaker 2
But then when you need to say scale or say set different settings, configurations for your users, for your commissions, you can always do that. So like the short answer would be, yes, you can pay both in crypto and you can also pay in fiat and the calculation engine in relay, PENDLE, it'll.
Tyler@
I love that. That's a great answer to be able to solve problems that sort of affect the gamut of all the stakeholders that are involved with the project because there are many of them and they fit different demos without question.
Tyler@
So with the web three user experience problem. What does that actually look like tangibly from either a partners perspective or a user's perspective and sort of handling that Fiat crypto payment like does everybody get their own wallet address that it gets sent to Do you basically are you pay piling people.
Tyler@
I mean I'm not sure how far that scope fits into your actual product offering but it feels like a big other side of after you've managed it. How do you actually get it to people. How does that fit into the to your platform.
Speaker 2
That's a great question, how it all works. And what I really love about our approach is that we are very much Web2 -grammed in many ways. And I think that's very important because so many people want to be vocal about Web3 features.
Speaker 2
Web3 is amazing. It's definitely the future of where the entire cycle goes. But so many people overlook fundamentals. There has to be a simple way for you to do these things and you don't have to worry about anything else and you don't have to be explaining stuff.
Speaker 2
That's actually a big part of being a designer is basically finding most frictionless way to solve problems. Like what's the fastest route from X to Z to have this solved without any pain points for a user? And so the way we do it is that we just use data that the employers and users already have.
Speaker 2
So if you would think about a classic model where a employer revenue shares for someone who wants to, with a host who wants to have crypto paintings, that will be like your most classic way the payouts is set up. You would have a device that sits on chain.
Speaker 2
You get earnings through that device every period of time that payment needs to process. You calculate based on the commissions you have. So commissions is set to 50% so 50% goes to deploy, 50% goes to host. And then on a real estate, we deploy ads all the credible information, say helium, helium hotspot, it would be slanted wallets.
Speaker 2
Right? Name of the person who receives that device that they're receiving this for. We just calculate, then transform those, that data from calculation in the way that Solanin takes those transactions, so we just format those transactions in a specific way and then just send it on chain and give for it and give for a deploy as a confirmation and exploring for them to see that the payment actually went through.
Speaker 2
If it's on the fiat side, we use a system called wise at the moment. That's like sort of beta stage. Used to be called transfer wise, but essentially you get a file that you can import into that system that also contains all of the formatted transactions.
Speaker 2
You can send them out and wise then it will give you receipts as a confirmation of your process payments. And all of that lives and connected to your specific transactions when it relates you to lose any information ever in your workspace.
Speaker 2
And that allows us to, we don't have any, we don't have our own coin or we're not issuing any wallet addresses. What we do is we take what user has and applies already or the way they want to handle it.
Speaker 2
They can input their bank information, international bank information that they'll live outside US. They're crypto wallet and they want to be paid in crypto. That's all editable, changeable. Like say one time they want to be paid in crypto, and then they want to be paid to their bank account.
Speaker 2
That's all can be done. And we just allow the simplest way, I believe all the simplest way for the players to manage that because it's highly configurable. And we don't put any new friction points within the flow from our side.
Tyler@
That's fantastic. I love to hear that, especially knowing that that web three adoption curve can be a stumbling block in a lot of respects. It's sort of what is what makes this all very exciting and compelling, but at the same time, if you can't address or at least have a solution to those problems in a web two sort of mass adoption kind of way, it just doesn't scale and it breaks down.
Tyler@
So one of the things that I've been really impressed with obviously we share a bit of a kindred soul with respect to being product people is our kind of day jobs. Obviously one thing that you're very intentional on is sort of these feedback loops and learning about what pain points users are having and friction and trying to solve for those as aggressively as possible.
Tyler@
Where do you see the future of your product sort of developing as you're hearing additional challenges that users are having, whether it's scaling, whether it's part of that deployment process and how does that transition into the future product offering, if you will, that you're building towards.
Speaker 2
Great question. It's, I think it's fulfilling our destiny as all one platform. Being all in one is a hard challenge in itself to solve. You know, you were, again, as you said, you're touching a lot of these modules and every single one of those are representing some large set of problems.
Speaker 2
Usually it's not even one problem, it's just a large set of problems. And then you go on the individual problem level, you solve that problem, then you move up to the next one, to the next one, and you have rigorous feed, like in my team, you have rigorous feedback groups.
Speaker 2
I'm on weekly calls with my employers, and I think that's one of the great things about Relay and the model we selected and the way we went after large scale deployers is because we get the luxury of having the ability to talk to every single of our companies on the platform.
Speaker 2
So out of the 20 plus different larger organizations and Relay, I talk to every single one of them, they have direct line with me, they can call me, or we have the Slack community where we have individual channels between ourselves.
Speaker 2
So no feedback points are never lost like essential, and you can always come back and you can always cherry pick things and fix them, rather than going after like this core model, for instance, where people can just chat, it's impossible to keep track of things.
Tyler@
impossible. Yeah, I know you guys are building
Speaker 2
some great big products like 3NAMM and I can, you know, maybe that's your issue to some extent or you just gotta, you just gotta get through the noise, you know.
Tyler@
It's hard to do in a Discord model where it's sort of a free for all, where anybody can say anything and trying to triage problems or rank order, where the actual priority is. It's really tough to do. Um, so I'm, I'm, I'm envy your approach without question.
Speaker 2
No, 100%. We basically essentially, like in our beta we have, we convert every single of our companies that are running on relay into power users by just being there and like walking them, just taking them by their hand and like walking with them directly that journey.
Speaker 2
And that's great because you get to essentially see everything from within every single organization and then help them directly to listen to them, help them directly solve those issues. And a lot of things are similar between each other.
Speaker 2
So you see a lot of similar challenges on the points where they deviate, you find solutions that work for everyone as well. And so, going back to your question in the way that how like, I guess I already answered it to some extent that fulfilling our destiny to be this all -in -one platform eventually relay will become an offering for traditional wireless as well, sort of bridge between DY and Tread -Y.
Speaker 2
And that's where we hope to basically have both large approaches in building networks still come networks handled through relay.
Tyler@
That's interesting. Can you talk a bit about that? What does that transition look like as you go from a DIY first platform and problem solver to the Treadway experience? Where's the overlap?
Tyler@
Where are the differences?
Speaker 2
Absolutely. And the funny part is like actually not funny, but like, interesting, fascinating part is that the overlap is almost everywhere. You know, people, people tend to say that crypto is so much different from like real world, like, you know, web to web plan, previous ways technology was built.
Speaker 2
Well, in many cases, of course, it's improved, middleman removed, whatever is your crypto narrative, you're pushing in your project. But in many ways, it's same challenges, same, same sub technologies just slightly, you know, wrapped into a different package, pretty much.
Speaker 2
And with different obviously with different maybe governance, there's key parts that that set crypto aside from a subset more centralized projects. But technology wise, in many cases, is pretty similar. And telecommunications sort of industry is no difference in many ways.
Speaker 2
You can essentially see same deployment, or, you know, you said it right, you just you just put it right in the target with like calling it life cycle of the infrastructure, it's very close in many ways to what traditional telecom experiences with them, as well as having the challenges of deployment cycle, you know, how do they find that that applications then go survey them, they then, you know, find the way to deploy on them, then deploy actual actual hardware, then retain it, process those payouts.
Speaker 2
You know, we estimate that over $100 million in payouts are processed at this day, this year, alone by traditional wireless and you know, so you get, let's let's say wireless in global, right, it's $100 million send out to in various forms, send out to these commercial real estate or individual real estate for that hardware is deployed, telecommunications are telecommunications that work or said, and you know, that $100 million is like in many ways, just, you know, it's it's it's really hard for them to process that in a maintained and trackable way.
Speaker 2
And so, you know, you can you can start seeing many challenges on different levels that just correlate between DIY and TreadWire. And one of the things that we're particularly proud of really is that, you know, we believe that we are preventing DIY from going the ugly route that traditional wireless took.
Speaker 2
Okay, basically traditional wireless is a pioneer, sort of, you know, you have to build networks, you have to build connectivity, right. And it was, it was all built like back in the 80s, 90s, like most of the most of the large telecommunication networks rollouts were done there, where software was like just in the inception phase, computers were just starting, you know, and the individual site and the commercial side.
Speaker 2
And that software was like another whole, whole new thing that goes on top of that. And so many, many things were just done in an old, you know, piece of paper, right, and then keep a record. And we just, you know, we believe that Dinosaur H should never hit DIY.
Speaker 2
And that's what we, what we helped prevent. And, you know, actively helping prevent. And then, once we're done with DIY and helped, helped DIY at large, we can go in and using the, using the way we change DIY and help DIY be stable, automated, optimized on the deployment side, we can also influence traditional wireless to change and improve essential.
Speaker 2
And isn't that about essentialized wireless in general, we want to improve, want to improve our telecommunication efforts are built and, you know, managed and governed. So I think that's like just the whole spirit of the entire industry at large.
Tyler@
interesting. You said something that I'd love to unpack a little bit, which was that you're trying to prevent the problems that happen in the Treadwide world from percolating or spilling over into DUI.
Tyler@
Some of the interesting kind of value props about DUI is obviously the fact that there's not a ginormous amount of CAPEX required, obviously, they're trying to decentralize that changes a little bit at the larger scale deployer side. It's sort of built using, call it more modern, at least there's a very receptive nature or spirit around adopting kind of more cutting edge, more secure technology.
Tyler@
What are the risks that you're seeing or that you think could potentially hold DUI back the way that maybe that happened at the Treadwide level, whether it was from antiquated technology, antiquated business models.
Tyler@
Where do you see some of the pitfalls that as builders and as deployers in the space, we should be thinking about from how to not replicate that problem. And then obviously you've got your way of trying to solve it. Can you talk about that a bit?
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. I think it goes back to my idea that I mentioned before, is not, you know, not being afraid of solving fundamentals. Again, many, many people, and I think that's just scenario nature.
Speaker 2
You know, we want to do sexy things. We're going to do some juicy things that, like, oh, you know, I'm building some coin and it's like this revolutionary protocol and XYZ. And the way that you're changing the way phone numbers are actually, you know, used by, by everyday people and running on chain. I think that's very, that's very interesting approach. And certainly the one that needs to be solved.
Speaker 2
There's definitely areas that require just somebody who will just take their, you know, put their sleeves up and then just get to work and build the right framework for these companies to just avoid, as you said, pitfalls.
Speaker 2
Pitfalls are essentially your, the way you're, the way you're managing your infrastructure. So, you know, it's like two words, the managing infrastructure that contains so much stuff.
Speaker 2
What traditional wireless had to go through was that, you know, there was all of these people that were building networks, all these companies and many of them saw different challenges, say, I want to run simulations to understand how much, how much potential subscribers are in the area and boom, you know, you have set of tools and like many market for those set of tools to provide solutions for different, different internet service providers and they're using these different tools.
Speaker 2
But then when it comes to other problems, say, say, contracting people and like keep track of payments and like keep track of inventory and stuff, you have another tool and then you have a whole another tool for just managing infrastructure and testing and like understanding what's up, what's down, you know, and then you have a whole other tool to build your customers and it ends up being piled up in this number of different apps that you have to manage.
Speaker 2
And so, what's the resolution? You have more people in your company, you start, you start, you know, having different departments, but in fact, it can all very well be packed just into one platform handled by less fewer people, actually like potentially even a couple of people are just founders of the company, which makes the whole managing part a lot more cost effective.
Speaker 2
You know, some things obviously it's having a cap axe when you deploy these networks, but you also endure a lot of these operational expenses, like when you just you have to run them, you have to have employees to run all of these different things.
Speaker 2
And if you don't have automated normal systems, optimize the systems that help you arrive at this most automated way of running your operations, you're pretty much screwed with, you know, living in the world of these different applications, or in the worst case scenario, if you're small, that's worse for you.
Speaker 2
Because you know, it's very difficult, as we said, build your internal internal software. If you're a large company like AT &T, they all pretty much mostly run their internal software and you know, they have these large engineering teams that have to go through each side, you know, they deploy new 6G, say 7G, whatever, Wi -Fi 6, they will need to be automated.
Speaker 2
It's not just maintenance cycle on the hardware side, also on the software side, and that that occurs a lot of operational expenses for the company. And so I guess what I'm saying, help DY avoid some of the pitfalls from traditional wireless, I say, be optimized and automated to the teeth from the beginning, because it's very possible.
Speaker 2
And the reason why it's very possible is just you asked yourself a question in the beginning, like, and that's what we do with all these employees, we come into them and say, guys, like this platform and beta, it's completely free for you, you can use it and just provide feedback for us and help us build it into something valuable for you.
Speaker 2
So you don't have to struggle, you don't have to hire more people, you don't have to, you don't have to think, you know, or just wake up in cold sweat and saying, oh my God, they have to run payouts tomorrow or something like that, you know.
Speaker 2
Yeah, so I guess, I guess, fundamentals, so fundamentals to the highest level you can. And then obviously crypto has its own challenges like running on chain and it's different from it's a it's a it's a different piece from traditional wireless which runs pretty much centralized.
Speaker 2
Yet still, I think that a lot of these correlating experiences should be solved on the fundamental way before we can start thinking about some new, you know, interesting, say, detached crypto problems.
Tyler@
Sure, sure, fair enough. And I think that the sort of the intersection of those problems are going to persist regardless of where in the technology curve they are. They're always going to be there, but it's really trying to have, you know, being able to look back and learn from mistakes or whatever you want to call it, lessons learned.
Tyler@
Yeah, you said something that triggered a thought in my head, which was how has the introduction of additional wireless networks and some of those bring on their own kind of web three -isms, if you will. Like when you started, it was helium.
Tyler@
Now there's helium and there used to be pollen. And now there's Xnet and there's more coming to the forefront. How has that changed your business model? Does it require sort of another version or a flavor of the product with different chains and managing different hardware?
Tyler@
How does that look like? Because I imagine that trend is going to just continue as more people see the exciting opportunities that are related to DUI. There'll be other players that enter the space.
Tyler@
How does that affect your business model? And how do you think about those trends moving forward?
Speaker 2
Absolutely. I think again, it's, it's all answering the question of how can you provide the most simplistic experience, both for the players and their teams and their hosts to the way that they like building different products.
Speaker 2
We absolutely help. I think that's going to be not, not good, you know, experience for the end user. And so we take all of that complexity onto our team, onto ourselves. And we say, we'll solve it for you.
Speaker 2
And it's still always, it's, it's always going to be all in one platform, single place for you to run in the web. You know, take your phone, take your laptop, be in the field or be in a be somewhere in a city. You don't have to download anything. You can always access it. And so, you know, it's, it's, it's about, again, just being simple and, and never give that up.
Speaker 2
Like, just don't give it up no matter what complex technical problem you have in front of you, which there's going to be a lot, you know, different chains. Say, you know, Helium runs in Solana, now you want to go Xnet, it's, it's, you have to, you have to go and develop new tech for new chain. Right. Then someone else, like there's this carrier one guys company that runs on Ethereum, I believe, then there's really network that's coming up and, and, you know, and if you go into larger depth and demos and high backers running on other, other chains.
Speaker 2
And so, yes, there's definitely absolutely technical aspect to that, but that has to be resolved. And that's like a lot of, a lot of people forget, but like, that's why companies exist. They resolve these issues. Right. And they charge, charge for it essentially, right.
Speaker 2
And so for, for, for our end users, it will never change. It will always be one platform, simple way to manage everything you need. And no matter what technical problem we'll get, obviously there might be in the future and I can't speak to that, but there might be different products and different platforms in the future.
Speaker 2
We'll see, but we'll always try to make it simple and accessible for everyone, regardless of their technicality to use this and help them, help them develop large, large, large network. No matter what type of network we need to integrate with.
Tyler@
That's fantastic. One of the things that I really respect about you, both on a product level and just as like a business ethos level is that you're very laser focused in on the fact that you know who your customers are, what problems they're facing, how that sort of progresses as you begin to knock down those little modules and begin to build them into sort of a one stop solution for everything.
Tyler@
I imagine as part of that process, you're really looking at the forefront at the trends of things that are coming down the road that might introduce new challenges or new ways of maybe doing things. Where are you seeing not just, you know, with large scale deployments, but sort of DIY at large going, how do you think that's gonna fit into your broader business model?
Tyler@
Do you think there's going to be sort of big changes that might come in the next coming years or you know, six months to a year to two to five? Or is it really steady the course? We're gonna continue as we try to get ubiquitous coverage within whatever it's 5G or with Wi -Fi or some of these other protocol bands.
Tyler@
And where are those trends going? And then how does it really relate to your business?
Speaker 2
That's a great question. Trends are a fun topic to talk about. I think one of the big things that we saw initially with Helium and Helium is being this North star, this entire industry, showing us a lot of examples.
Speaker 2
I think that one of the big things we saw is that coverage mostly should be controlled. And that doesn't necessarily mean that means that, some AT &T type of company needs to control coverage. No, but that means that that sort of speaks to our idea that large -scale employers, people who are willing to be a bit more technical, maintain these networks to their sides, they have to just step in and build out most of the coverage, to make it really, really useful, reliable coverage.
Speaker 2
I think one of the great examples that we can look up to would be Exxonat, with their whole new sort of way they approach building out wireless networks. They very much are focused on specific deployments in specific areas that saw specific purpose.
Speaker 2
They only commission to people who understand what they're doing. They have uptime requirements. So this is one of the more exciting parts, more exciting trends on my end, is I would love to see more controlled, useful, long -term coverage, rather than just being in a position where slap devices anywhere just to get earnings.
Speaker 2
I think a lot of people misrepresented, DIY and DAPN in the beginning for just mining. It's not about mining. Mining is a derivative. It's something that comes after you actually to provide useful coverage. So flashing out, bad actors, flashing out people who just wanted to get some earnings and get to, and there's always gonna be people like that.
Speaker 2
You're welcome to be a host. No, there's no problem with that. It's just the builders will have the upside and the builders that will actually build useful, controlled coverage will have most upside, I believe.
Speaker 2
Yeah. Yeah. So that's definitely, like, DIY and DAPN has interesting, and I would love to hear your thoughts on that. I think you guys represent one of the more exciting project on the consumer side, that touches a lot of, like, pretty much everyone on the planet.
Speaker 2
I think DIY, and let's say larger DAPN, goes in both ways. It goes into, in a way, of companies and enterprises, and enabling them to deploy and build infrastructure that has taken incentivize. And also in the way of consumers, because there's a lot of projects like Demo and HighMembr, they're very consumer heavy, for instance, we're not really looking into them from a really perspective, because those both are very consumer oriented, and they will be driven by consumers mostly.
Speaker 2
Not to say that there's no enterprise application, obviously there is, and there's great enterprise we're building on top of those projects, but mostly those projects will be driven by consumers. What do you think about this?
Speaker 2
I'm curious to hear your thoughts, like, in terms of enterprise versus consumer in DAPN.
Tyler@
Yeah, it's a really interesting paradox in a lot of respects because on one hand, it really does take the sort of the enterprise standardization. Like when I had a conversation with Rich over at XNET, one of the things that I was instantly impressed by was how laser focused they were around the fact that they can create a very valuable model, but it has to be done within sort of a tight parameter of how that gets deployed and what the requirements are, some of the things you touched on.
Tyler@
I think in the other side, there's this new, you no longer have to sort of solve for the cold start problem. I bring this up a lot, which is you have ways to incentivize where maybe the supply is low, you have, or the demand's low, you have a supply that you can kind of sort of offset that with, and as that hits an inflection point, whether that's at a capacity for coverage density, and I know a lot of the metrics that sort of matter within wireless, they're not just, it's not about how many nodes there are, it's about density and coverage where there's a lot of users and whatnot.
Tyler@
And so in any event, those things are sometimes at odds with each other because you're right, if it's just as easy as plugging a device in, you can begin getting the ubiquitous, and I think that might have been a bit easier in the lower -wand space where you had wireless connectivity that expanded quite a bit further than what you get in sort of short range like 5G, but you certainly need both, and I'm, I wouldn't put myself in the expert category of solving the problems.
Tyler@
I think what it ultimately boils down to is incentives, and their incentives are there that they can be used in a way that brings those parts of the equation together, but it does take a bit of a benevolent dictator, like I look at Rich, I'm not saying he's a benevolent dictator, anything like that, but it takes someone that says, this won't work unless we follow these guidelines, and if we don't follow these guidelines, it's sort of a waste of time, you might get a lot of hype and you got a lot of sizzle, but there's really no mistake.
Tyler@
And so I think that the enterprise component to this is going to be really important, especially as we develop the shorter term, the short range wireless networks that are the backbone of your cell phone plan or sort of your wireless at home, that it's going to take a well conceived and sort of thought out tactical pragmatic approach for going and deploying that.
Tyler@
And it's really easy to just get so blinded by, oh my God, the crypto is at $100 and we're all rich. And so it doesn't matter. You just plug the thing in. You know what I mean? Yeah. So that's that's my two cents. But it you need both at the end of the day.
Tyler@
I think I think you do. I think helium mobiles are really interesting. They're focused right now on, you know, onboarding users and sort of building up that user base. And as you, you know, again, these are stakeholders within a system that is you're doing things like mapping and you're doing things like consuming, or maybe you've got a deployment and you're you know, getting compensated in token, and then you're paying for it.
Tyler@
Like you build all these components into the ecosystem. It just has to be thoughtfully managed. So that's a very long wanted answer and explanation to saying, Oh, I love it. I think you don't have that oversight. I think the long term sustainability and viability isn't going to be there.
Tyler@
You're just gonna get hype cycles, you know, and
Speaker 2
It's definitely two part of the system. And I think you have to be really, really resilient to those hype cycles for sure. And the way to be resilient to them is to have the backbone in place, the foundation, and the foundation will always be companies and organizations or people.
Speaker 2
It's also, it's gonna be people, not to say that there's gonna be no individual the closer anything, but people with longer term vision who are invested, not just in the token itself, but in the network and in providing connectivity.
Speaker 2
And so I think one of the interesting parts and one of the interesting trends that we certainly see on the DIY side were traditional deployers buying in more and more. And I think with help of networks like XNAT and Helium Mobile and some other interesting projects that come up, we'll only see more traditional wireless people buying into them.
Speaker 2
Because one of the big, great things the traditional wireless has is that they already have deployments. When you try to bootstrap a new network, you basically essentially resolve a whole bunch of, a gigantic set of issues and you have to go from like zero to somewhere and it's painful.
Speaker 2
Well, all of these traditional wireless deployers they already have infrastructure. So you can just put additional infrastructure on top of it and build network. And so I think that's gonna be very interesting trend. We'll see more and more over the coming years, especially giving how vast, to some extent, vast market is in the United States for WISPs and ISPs.
Speaker 2
And that will only grow because of the networks that are talking and sent to us. Because essentially now everyone could be ISP.
Tyler@
Right. That's interesting. So you see that there's going to be sort of a hybrid approach, maybe, where some of the bigger column incumbents are in the space are looking at ways that they could maybe offset their CAPEX and they can increase their infrastructure or modernize their infrastructure by tapping into this tokenized incentive, but it doesn't necessarily require redeploying or sort of resetting up the actual locations.
Tyler@
It's just building upon them. Is that maybe a fair assessment of how things might progress?
Speaker 2
This is definitely one of those existential questions I would say, you'll definitely need to see how it goes. I think, again, this has been proven, and we're all believers here, right? So we're, you know, hopeers, believers, hoping for things.
Speaker 2
So yes, we all hope that one day DY will be the only way things are working, but it's gonna be very tough. Very tough sell. That's gonna take a long, long time. We're all advocates, but we still need to flesh out a lot of things.
Speaker 2
So I definitely think that eventually it's going to be a hybrid model, and that hybrid model will, like we'll basically see a race, often which will centralized or will decentralized win, or will some kind of hybrid of both of those win.
Speaker 2
I definitely think that hybrid, you know, doesn't really hurt anyone like essentially. Think about, think about, obviously you put in money and so long as the network has right incentives aligned for these deployers to deploy, I think that part is, that part is resolved to some extent, right?
Speaker 2
But there's really like a side of covering the expense of deployment. There's really no downside for you as a traditional wireless deployer to just put additional infrastructure on top of each other's sides. That's what we've seen with some of these, some of these initial companies that buy it to DY.
Speaker 2
They just, they just say, hey, you know, I have these 10 ,000 sites, why just, you know, I'll go put like million dollars into some network or maybe diversify and put a different, and these companies are rich, you know, they have subscribers, they have real business model behind them, something that Hewlett is trying to build right now with their FNL, which I think is super smart and they're doing a great job.
Speaker 2
But like when you have a real business model, you can put that on top and then, you know, figure out and improve that as well. So hybrid, definitely hybrid is one of the safe bets that we're seeing.
Tyler@
Yeah, I love that. I love that. Well, this has been such a informative conversation talking about just the space in general. You know, we started off, I started off going really into the wireless side of it because that was kind of where my passion was.
Tyler@
Obviously the space is transition and grew in the last year going from kind of DIY to this general, more broad D -PIN space, but it doesn't change that at home, the thing that I really love the most out of all of them, if I had to pick a favorite sibling or a favorite child, if you will, it would be the DIY space.
Tyler@
And so getting a chance to hear about what it is like to be a part of ensuring that there's sort of a viability outside of just the financial upside is really a unique perspective that I think you are privileged to share with us.
Tyler@
And so I want to just thank you so much for taking the time to share all of those things. Where can people check out what you're building if there are, sounds like you've got sort of the lion's share of the market, at least within the DIY deployment space, working on your platform, which is really exciting.
Tyler@
But for those that aren't, where can they find out about you, get in touch, and learn more when they're ready?
Speaker 2
Yeah, absolutely. And thanks so much Tyler for having me on the podcast. They think that's one of the first shows, one of the many we will do in the future. Certainly I hope so for it. Find us at really wireless .com.
Speaker 2
That's our main website. And there you can sign up for the platform. I jump on the call with me if you need to discuss anything. And we're also very active on Twitter. So at really wireless .com would be our Twitter handle for the company.
Speaker 2
And you can also follow me at ElijahLomaca .com. Sorry, just ElijahLomaca .com. On Twitter as well. I would be happy to answer any questions and help as much the questions as I can. I'll take it.
Tyler@
Yeah, no, absolutely. And we'll be sure to link all that down in the description below. So you make sure you go follow Elijah, go to his website, check everything out. We'll make sure to link all that.
Tyler@
Well, were there any, any other final closing statements that you wanted to share before we wrap it up here? We've gotten a lot of, covered a lot of ground, but is there anything else that we left out before we wrap it up?
Speaker 2
Now just follow what's unleashing deep end right now. Yeah, that's what it is now. Follow unleashing deep end all the platforms. And what's the abbreviation for? Wagni, we're all going to make it. Here we go. Right, Wagni. There you go.
Tyler@
Well, hey, Elijah, thank you again. We really appreciate it. We're going to link everything down below. Be sure to check him out, get in touch. If you are a deployer, he's the person you want to be speaking with.
Tyler@
So we want to thank you again, and we'll see you on the next one.
Speaker 2
Thanks guys. Thanks everyone. Cheers.
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